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Post by notoriousfro on Mar 30, 2006 21:10:26 GMT -5
god and jesus are two very different things, and i beleive in neither. hehe
First of all, this "God" is, i assume, the god who made Mary pregnant, which led to the birth of Jesus. This by it self defies everything we as humans have EVER learned. How can a woman become pregnant without sperm entering her body? I really have no idea...
Second, Jesus was a random man who said he was the son of god and decided to get himself killed for it. Now, why would anyone in their right mind ever get themselves killed over something so dumb as that? Did he really free us of our sins or something? Not really, i mean...i sin all the time lol.
Christianity has its issues also, but i dont want to pinpoint a specific religion for fear of being lynched ^^
All religions are foolish because they have no real backing. Did god create the world in seven days? You really think so? If yes, you obviously beleive god placed bones of dinosaurs in the ground so we could find them for fun! Kinda like a treasure hunt! Woopeeee!! And what about evolution, and everything supporting it? Can you really say that evolution is wrong and the theory is completely BS, and then turn around and say that you beleive everything a man 2000 years ago? Also, everything "He" said was translated over languages, and over time, and over water, and land, and mountains, and everything else...im rambling...so that the real meaning of his beleifs and what he ACTUALLY said, were lost. THe Bible? Well...it was rewritten many times. THe editors mustve had a helluva time with it.
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Post by Med on Mar 30, 2006 21:18:15 GMT -5
Virgin Mary - I thought the "Virgin Mary" was a mistranslation for a "young woman". :S
Jesus - Born to "Mary and Joseph of Bethlehem" (Too bad Jesus, Mary, and Joseph were COMMON NAMES back then. Yeah, Jesus. Jesus meant Saviour. I guess everyone wanted their sons to be one of the dozens of Messiah's roaming the land to be the true Messiah).
Jesus & Being Hung on a Cross - I thought this was a popular way for Romans to torture and kill people. :S
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Mar 30, 2006 22:38:12 GMT -5
god and jesus are two very different things, and i beleive in neither. hehe First of all, this "God" is, i assume, the god who made Mary pregnant, which led to the birth of Jesus. This by it self defies everything we as humans have EVER learned. How can a woman become pregnant without sperm entering her body? I really have no idea... Second, Jesus was a random man who said he was the son of god and decided to get himself killed for it. Now, why would anyone in their right mind ever get themselves killed over something so dumb as that? Did he really free us of our sins or something? Not really, i mean...i sin all the time lol. Lol, about Mary becoming pregnant: If God created the universe, He isn't bound by the laws of physics that He wrote. Many miracles have defied said laws, this is just another example. Also, you make an excellent point about Jesus. He claimed to be the Son of God. As you said, "why would anyone in the right mind ever get themselves killed over something so dumb as that?" Or, in other words, why would He die for it if He knew it was a lie? From Jesus claiming to be the Son of God stem three logical possibilities: 1. He was lying. 2. He was crazy. 3. He was telling the truth. As you said, who would give their life for a lie? So possibility number one is made more unlikely. As for whether or not He was crazy...lol, read some gospels and you can decide! About Him saving us from our sins... Of course you sin all the time. I sin all the time. We're human. What Jesus did was give us a way to get all that sin forgiven, so that we could start fresh, so that the choice of living with God would become available. If we choose to live with God, then when we leave this mortal body, then we'll have the power to stop sinning completely. ^_^ All religions are foolish because they have no real backing. Care to back that? Kind of a quick generalization there, if you'd ask me. Did god create the world in seven days? You really think so? If yes, you obviously beleive god placed bones of dinosaurs in the ground so we could find them for fun! Kinda like a treasure hunt! Woopeeee!! And what about evolution, and everything supporting it? Can you really say that evolution is wrong and the theory is completely BS, and then turn around and say that you beleive everything a man 2000 years ago? You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity here. I hope you'll allow me to clarify these. First of all, Christian does not necessarily mean creationist. I, for one, think that evolution makes perfect sense. I would be more surprised if God did just put bones on the earth than I would be to find that dinosaurs existed. How do I reconcile this with Genesis? Well, Genesis is not a scientific account. Its purpose is not to discuss the mechanisms of the creation of the world, it simply tells us of the world's perfection before the fall, of God's plan for humanity, of the fall itself, and God's calling Israel to be His people. Maybe "seven days" is symbolic. Maybe each day lasted a few billion years. Or maybe God created earth before He wrote the laws of physics we know, and seven days was plenty. *big shrug* It doesn't really matter, in the grand scheme of things.
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Post by Med on Mar 31, 2006 0:24:05 GMT -5
Even Christians admit: some of the stories in the bible at bulls---. Noah and the Ark? HOLY SWEET JESUS CHRIST!
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Post by notoriousfro on Mar 31, 2006 15:07:21 GMT -5
hehe
I understand Chrisitnaity very well, i went to a catholic school for five year and they tried everything on me. I was baptized, had first communion, first reconciliation, etc. What a waste of time...
Out of the three options you provided for Jesus, I pick that he was crazy. About being pregant, OK, beleive what you want about Mary, I wont try and convert you like Christians do to everyone else. I don't beleive in God creating the universe, because "He" didn't, so therefore he couldn't make Mary pregnant anyways. Laws of physics have nothing to do with giveing birth btw. I have read gospels, they don't convince me of anything.
The big problem with your post was the ending. I find it hilarious, and ironic, that you can say something so blasphemic! Jesus said God created the world in seven days, and everyone beleived him until Darwin came along. The Christians then changed their beleifs (or at least the non-radicals) when they realized that they cant't argue with the extent of science. You say that God made Mary pregnant, and had a son who was "born again", yet he couldnt' make the world in seven REAL days? Either go all the way or no way at all, cause Jesus said things that are either TOTALLY true or aren't true at all. Miracles are miracles, don't pick and choose between the ones you think happened or not. If you cuold, reply to this post without the usage of the words "faith" or "beleif".
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Post by Med on Mar 31, 2006 16:59:23 GMT -5
Not to be stupid or anything, but why did 'God' ask for all of Israel to be CIRCUMCISED? I mean, it's only a GUY thing. D:<
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Mar 31, 2006 19:35:27 GMT -5
If you cuold, reply to this post without the usage of the words "faith" or "beleif". Heh. Faith is what it's all about! I understand Chrisitnaity very well, i went to a catholic school for five year and they tried everything on me. I was baptized, had first communion, first reconciliation, etc. What a waste of time... Oh, Roman Catholic? Maybe Roman Catholics are all creationist, I wouldn't know. Out of the three options you provided for Jesus, I pick that he was crazy. About being pregant, OK, beleive what you want about Mary, I wont try and convert you like Christians do to everyone else. I don't beleive in God creating the universe, because "He" didn't, so therefore he couldn't make Mary pregnant anyways. Laws of physics have nothing to do with giveing birth btw. I have read gospels, they don't convince me of anything. Lol, okay, so you think Jesus is crazy. Well, don't shut Him out, in case He tries to talk to you. Laws of physics actually have everything to do with birth, but I'm guessing that's not really very important right now... The big problem with your post was the ending. I find it hilarious, and ironic, that you can say something so blasphemic! Jesus said God created the world in seven days, and everyone beleived him until Darwin came along. The Christians then changed their beleifs (or at least the non-radicals) when they realized that they cant't argue with the extent of science. You say that God made Mary pregnant, and had a son who was "born again", yet he couldnt' make the world in seven REAL days? Either go all the way or no way at all, cause Jesus said things that are either TOTALLY true or aren't true at all. Miracles are miracles, don't pick and choose between the ones you think happened or not. Check my post, I never said God couldn't make the earth in seven days. I just said I'd find that more surprising than finding out that evolution and all that happened. I also said that in the big picture, I don't think it really matters. What matters is what we can do now, with this life that God gave us, and that we can life with God for eternity after we die. About what Jesus said: you're right, what he said has to be totally true. But remember, he often spoke in parables? He used stories with morals to them to get some truths across. The creation account told in Genesis could be a parable. Or it could be completely true. *shrug* It's on my big list of things to ask God when I'm finished here.
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Mar 31, 2006 19:40:46 GMT -5
Not to be stupid or anything, but why did 'God' ask for all of Israel to be CIRCUMCISED? I mean, it's only a GUY thing. D:< Rofl medic, you ask some funny stuff. From what I understand, circumcision is a symbol of cleanliness. God was calling the Israelites to live as a people without sin. This was often symbolized as being clean. For example, whenever the Bible talks about an evil spirit, the actual Greek words used meant "unclean spirit". So anyways, the circumcision was a commitment of the Israelites to be clean. Literally and metaphorically.
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Post by meep on Mar 31, 2006 20:07:26 GMT -5
I belive in them because I choose to. Need to have faith that there is something bigger for us out there.
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Post by Med on Apr 1, 2006 1:13:09 GMT -5
For some reason, when I ask someone why they believe in religion, they ask what happens after we die, before they ask how the universe was created.
I REFUSE TO BELIEVE GOD KNOWS ADVANCED CALCULUS. IF GOD DID KNOW EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, WHEN ADAM AND EVE ATE FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE, WHICH "CONTAINS THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD", THEY SHOULD'VE BECOME GENIUSES.
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solder
Got Socomized
Posts: 13
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Post by solder on Apr 1, 2006 9:53:11 GMT -5
Well, there can be many reasons why something like that could happen. First of all, one could just be praying for the wrong reason. Ultimately, we are supposed to be serving God, not ourselves. So prayers that are self-serving, or just testing God, are probably not very high on His priority list. Take medic, for example: he just prayed that God would make him a millionaire. Somehow, I don't think he has serving God in mind there, what with him being atheist and all. So, I'm betting God has very little motivation to make medic a millionaire. Can't rule it out, though. So, did my having a dog help me serve God at all? God only knows. Secondly, something like this could easily be a trial. God will never let us be tempted or tested beyond what we can endure, but anything else is fair game. Trials in life are an important spiritual growth factor. If everything was easy, we'd never grow strong. No spiritual pain, no spiritual gain. I think you get the idea . Finally, God might have a better idea in mind. You know how making a life-long friend can sometimes happen because you happened to, I dunno, miss the bus and meet the person? God weaves together these threads of fate, or whatever you want to call them. Did my dog's death lead to the occurence of an important event? God only knows. There's a good example for this one: the night before He was captured, Jesus prayed that He would not have to be crucified. But of course, that was the plan. So it had to happen. Hi Batt, I really appreciate your taking time to explain your faith. I really am unfamiliar with much of this, so all I can do is keep what you have said in mind. Yet, I was wondering if you had any opinions on this piece: www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/nation/14226293.htm
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solder
Got Socomized
Posts: 13
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Post by solder on Apr 1, 2006 10:01:14 GMT -5
Oh, okay. You're a Skeptic of the empirical type... I'm surprised, actually, to hear you bring up Godel's Incompleteness Theorem(s). (Luckily, Gentzen showed that we're safe when it comes to arithmetic. ) I realize that repeatability lends credibility to experimentation. However, above and beyond the implications of Godel, bear in mind that experimentation takes place within a controlled environment. It doesn't work to vary multiple factors independently. <example if necessary> Your life, by contrast, has an innumerable number of variables. You are not a repeatable experiment, and you have no control group. Other people's interaction with you occurs on a situational basis. Even if people operated on simple, definable characteristic laws inherent to them, their interaction with you would depend on your situation, and their perception of it. While people may or may not operate on simple principles, the theory (Batto, grab me if I'm out of my depth) is that God does operate on principles of Love and Justice. I could keep going, but I'd like to see your response first, Solder. -Fry- Hmm, you sound like an you've had a lot of experience with these sorts of discussions. In the case of those areas that cannot be proven with true logical rigor, how much of a value would statistical analysis hold?
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Apr 1, 2006 14:13:20 GMT -5
Lmao! I was waiting for someone to bring this up. I read it in my newspaper a day or two ago. In response to this, I would reference Deuteronomy 6:16 : "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." Jesus speaks this verse when Satan suggests that He jump from the roof of the temple, citing from scripture that harm would not be allowed to come to Him. (The following is strictly my opinion) In the same way, what is this study but an elaborate test? God is not a medecine to be prescribed. When we pray, we ask God to use us, not us to use God. One does not randomly pray for one hospital patient and not for another. One prays for a sick or needy person out of love and genuine concern for them. Prayers are powerful, I did say that they need to be for the right reason. I understand that this could be discussed in greater detail, but I don't have any more time right now...
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Post by kimball on Apr 1, 2006 21:27:29 GMT -5
Hello everyone, first post. Solder told me to come here since there is a debate about the existence of god. I have read the entire thread I have to say that I am impressed at how this debate is going. Normally debates of this kind on these types of forums quickly turn into flame wars are just a bunch of random articles people post to prove a point.
I should start by saying what my current stance on god is. Since I am not sure whether I believe knowledge is possible or not I am split between two beliefs. The first belief is that I am a strong gnostic atheist, basically this means I believe we can know whether or not god can exist and the 'strong atheist' part means that I am strongly leaning toward god not existing. The second belief is that I am a 100% nihilist which would make me a pure agnostic, without believing that you can't know anything I don't see how one could ever be a true agnostic. Incase anyone is unsure of what I just said, a nihilist is a person that believes nothing can ever be known. I am going by the strict definition, don't give me any of that "if your a nihilist than you hate life" BS cause that is just a cop out and usually people who say that are just trying to avoid being a nihilist for some reason (usually because it can promote depression). The agnostic part means that one believes we can never know whether or not can or cannot exist therefore we choose to be completely 100% indifferent about it and as I said before this is an extremely hard thing to achieve.
Judging by this thread I assume we are talking about the Jewish/Muslim god and not the eastern god/s. Since this seems to be the trend I will be more precise with my arguments. Fallacies that would normally be looked down upon I will use in this case because they make sense when arguing over the western god.
If I am wrong, feel free to correct me but I'm pretty sure that is current flow of this thread. So far I see most people using science to try to disprove god but if you wouldn't mind I would like to delve into other areas as well. I say this because trying to use science to debunk religion is almost impossible since the 'faith' can be used every time to argue against scientific 'evidence'. I hope people will be able to keep up with this conversation because there is a good chance that it will become very heavy and deep (which is IMO the only way to have a conversation about something as important as god). I will reframe from nit picking the bible and I would appreciate it if the 'believers', likewise, won't try and use the bible to prove something.
I guess I'll start by laying down one of the more obvious holes in the Christian belief. How can you explain abortion/ murdering of an infant? According to Christian belief if you aren't baptized you will go to hell, well if you go by those rules millions of infants are going to hell every year, correct? Now if you say they can't go to hell because they are just infants and can't make choices than do they automatically go to heaven? Wouldn't this be ridiculous seeing as how that wouldn't require the person to be tested or judged? So then what? Will they just vanish into nothingness? Will they be reincarnated? This would also be impossible because Christianity never ever said anything about reincarnation being possible. One could say that god has not yet sent somebody to tell us all the answer or that god works in mysterious ways. But don't you think god would prevent or atleast explain the deaths of millions upon millions of people, to say that it is just gods way is completely avoiding the question. This seems to me that this should be the main focus of the church right now but it's like they are just avoiding it and distracting their followers with other far less important topics.
So, what do you think of this? What is your opinion on this topic? My guess is that most people here will say something along the lines of "I can't tell you why but I know god exists because he has answered a lot of other things and this is just one of the few he hasn't", if you are just going to say that please hold your typing. Really think about this for a few minutes and ask yourself, why would something as dire as the souls of millions of people not be on the top of god's/church's list?
If some of you think I sound arrogant I assure you I am not. I use the word 'one' sometimes because it is a very useful word and I prefer to use words other than 'he' or 'she' or 'somebody'.
Well, thats my first post and I hope people take it seriously and not just pass over it because they don't want face the question.
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Apr 1, 2006 22:35:00 GMT -5
Welcome to the boards, Kimball! And welcome to the discussion! I guess I'll start by laying down one of the more obvious holes in the Christian belief. How can you explain abortion/ murdering of an infant? According to Christian belief if you aren't baptized you will go to hell, well if you go by those rules millions of infants are going to hell every year, correct? Now if you say they can't go to hell because they are just infants and can't make choices than do they automatically go to heaven? Wouldn't this be ridiculous seeing as how that wouldn't require the person to be tested or judged? So then what? Will they just vanish into nothingness? Will they be reincarnated? This would also be impossible because Christianity never ever said anything about reincarnation being possible. One could say that god has not yet sent somebody to tell us all the answer or that god works in mysterious ways. But don't you think god would prevent or at least explain the deaths of millions upon millions of people, to say that it is just gods way is completely avoiding the question. This seems to me that this should be the main focus of the church right now but it's like they are just avoiding it and distracting their followers with other far less important topics. A few things I know, and what I derive from them: 1. Baptism was, originally, a choice that a person made. Not one that was made for them by their parents. It was a choice made by a person, to repent of sinful ways and try to follow God. My thoughts on this point: The ceremony of baptism is not what's important. It is the turning away from sinful ways that is important. 2. Paul says that without knowledge of the law, sin cannot be committed. (This knowledge of the law is in people's conscience, not just in books) Sin comes with the law. My thoughts: One might think this is a moot point. If it's written in our hearts, it's in us, and there's no excuse for sin. True enough, but look at the example of the babies: Brains not fully developped, never truly interacted with any human beings. If there's a human soul in there, there's a sinful nature in there, but have they even had the chance to act upon it? 3. God loves those babies, no matter the circumstances of their conception, birth, and death. My thoughts: God will know how to deal with this issue better than any of us. And, while we can try to prevent abortions and decrease infant mortality rates, we must trust the souls of the deceased to God. He's God, lol, why worry? According to Christian belief if you aren't baptized you will go to hell Hm. That one is debatable. Many churches would argue (And I would agree) that it's what's on the inside that counts, not the ceremony of baptism. But, if you want to follow God and have the opportunity to get baptized, by all means, do. ^_^
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