xcirkus
Got face LAW'd
33%
Posts: 189
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Post by xcirkus on Mar 28, 2006 13:06:17 GMT -5
'religion is the opiate of the masses.'
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Post by :[DS]: A MyStiCaL Fly on Mar 28, 2006 14:34:13 GMT -5
""Listen to... Pusher Man - by Steppenwolf Get your Bible and GOD DAMN! There is no such thing as a true atheist. All atheists believe in some form of creation. In my case, I believe we all originated from small micro-organisms. In "The Damn Bible", calculations state the Earth is 8000 years old. They should ban teaching Dinosaurs, because Dinosaurs say that the Earth is over 8000 years old. And yeah, they don't need to teach Intelligent Design. Just throw a "God-Damn Bible" at everyone to read Genesis from and then teach Evolution. Only Ignorance prevents Science. ABORTION FOREVER!!!!!!"" Before I respond to this, I HOPE to hell to mary to jesus to microscope to the grass, to whatever. That you are joking
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Post by Med on Mar 28, 2006 15:29:45 GMT -5
Exaggerating (I don't know how to spell the damn word) is a pretty good explanation of what I posted.
And yes, throwing the Bible at kids will help half the battle.
edit: I love that quote
"Absense of Evidence does not dictate an Evidence of Absense."
LETS PROVE EVERYTHING LIKE THAT
CRAP! WHAT ABOUT THE CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE!!?!?!? IT GETS PROVED EITHE WAY! OH NOES!!!!!
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solder
Got Socomized
Posts: 13
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Post by solder on Mar 28, 2006 16:47:44 GMT -5
Wow, this topic has bloomed very nicely. My goal for this topic is to have a clearer understanding of both my beliefs and the beliefs of others. Ask the questions. Love may (and likely does) have connection to chemical phenomena, but I think that love is an attachment that gives us a (counter-evolutionary) ability to self-sacrifice for the benefit of someone or some group. Love is saying that you will relinquish the desire to look out for number one in order that someone else gets more than they deserve. I'm still digesting everyone's posts, but as a science-geek, I have to point out one statement here that stood out to me. Self-sacrifice is not necessarily counter-evolutionary, as researchers have found out in the past few decades. Any altruistic behavior that leads to harm or nor apparent benefit in one individual and assistance in others does happen if it increases the health of the population as a whole. Examples of this kind of behavior are everywhere, from worker bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the hive during an attack and cellular slime molds that sacrifice themselves for the survival of others. Altruism, of which you defined as analagous to love, is found in many animals of the world. I am confused how this implies a higher being.
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solder
Got Socomized
Posts: 13
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Post by solder on Mar 28, 2006 16:57:36 GMT -5
Atheists don't believe in divine beings creating the world. Science is not a religion. You are correct. It is not a religion. But it most certainly is a faith. No one can never fully prove that we evolved from micro-organisms. But there is evidence for it, and so atheists can take it on faith that we came from them. I agree that all these beliefs require faith. The question here is, is faith black and white? Should all faiths be considered equally? Are there different levels of faith? That is, is faith of the existence of something through observation on a different level than faith without observation? What about faith of the existence of something that has been verified by 1000 pieces of evidence versus a faith verified by one or two or ten?
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Post by [Q4]Fry on Mar 28, 2006 17:01:07 GMT -5
Please bear in mind that the tenets of Darwinism assume a predilection to propagation of one's personal genes. Worker bees (and ants, which I actually thought of when I wrote that) will give their lives for the colony, but they cannot personally reproduce, and the closest thing to reproduction is ensuring colony survival, indirectly protecting their side of the gene pool. As humans we all (generally speaking) possess the means to reproduce. Please continue. -Fry-
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solder
Got Socomized
Posts: 13
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Post by solder on Mar 28, 2006 17:11:24 GMT -5
Please bear in mind that the tenets of Darwinism assume a predilection to propagation of one's personal genes. Worker bees (and ants, which I actually thought of when I wrote that) will give their lives for the colony, but they cannot personally reproduce, and the closest thing to reproduction is ensuring colony survival, indirectly protecting their side of the gene pool. As humans we all (generally speaking) possess the means to reproduce. Please continue. -Fry- Noted. Still, altruism does not only apply to animals incapable of reproducing. In groups of Belding ground squirrels, individuals sacrifice their lives just to warn the rest that danger is nearing.
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Mar 28, 2006 18:51:41 GMT -5
Eh, altruism is good, evolutionary or not. That would go under phileo, I think. Solder, I have a question for you. Do you have a particular belief at this point? You seem to be into evolution, but you said you're into science. Is there a point of view you're looking out from, analyzing stuff from? I might have a clearer idea of how to explain stuff...
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solder
Got Socomized
Posts: 13
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Post by solder on Mar 28, 2006 22:59:31 GMT -5
I believe in science, to the extent that the evidence that it presents is as legitimate as it gets (repetition under similar conditions tends to be reliable).
Yet, the use of strict logic to determine what is true and what is not true can possibly miss some truths, as Godel's Theorem showed. Thus, it is entirely possible that science can miss some truths and following science and science only is definitely a bit risky.
I see your mentions of using the heart, or my intuition, to find truth. The thing is, how can my heart be correct? Why should I trust myself? Over half of Americans see themselves as above average and most people don't get the Monty Hall problem. It seems like the human intuition does not care much about truth as much as what seems right. So, while people claim truths, based on gut instinct, that seem right, it is entirely possible that they are absolutely wrong, and I am not sure how I can be comfortable with that.
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Post by Med on Mar 28, 2006 23:31:10 GMT -5
This is why when parents raise their children, they take them to church every Sunday.
Pour Jesus into their brains.......brains.......
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Post by [Q4]Fry on Mar 29, 2006 1:06:31 GMT -5
I believe in science, to the extent that the evidence that it presents is as legitimate as it gets (repetition under similar conditions tends to be reliable). Yet, the use of strict logic to determine what is true and what is not true can possibly miss some truths, as Godel's Theorem showed. Thus, it is entirely possible that science can miss some truths and following science and science only is definitely a bit risky. I see your mentions of using the heart, or my intuition, to find truth. The thing is, how can my heart be correct? Why should I trust myself? Over half of Americans see themselves as above average and most people don't get the Monty Hall problem. It seems like the human intuition does not care much about truth as much as what seems right. So, while people claim truths, based on gut instinct, that seem right, it is entirely possible that they are absolutely wrong, and I am not sure how I can be comfortable with that. Oh, okay. You're a Skeptic of the empirical type... I'm surprised, actually, to hear you bring up Godel's Incompleteness Theorem(s). (Luckily, Gentzen showed that we're safe when it comes to arithmetic. ) I realize that repeatability lends credibility to experimentation. However, above and beyond the implications of Godel, bear in mind that experimentation takes place within a controlled environment. It doesn't work to vary multiple factors independently. <example if necessary> Your life, by contrast, has an innumerable number of variables. You are not a repeatable experiment, and you have no control group. Other people's interaction with you occurs on a situational basis. Even if people operated on simple, definable characteristic laws inherent to them, their interaction with you would depend on your situation, and their perception of it. While people may or may not operate on simple principles, the theory (Batto, grab me if I'm out of my depth) is that God does operate on principles of Love and Justice. I could keep going, but I'd like to see your response first, Solder. I am embarrassed to say that I had not heard of the ground squirrels, and I will go and look them up. My only response (unsatisfactory even to me) is to say: "Hmmph. I guess squirrels don't read Darwin." -Fry-
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Post by Fate|Speed[Y]Ninja on Mar 29, 2006 6:35:55 GMT -5
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Post by Med on Mar 29, 2006 8:22:57 GMT -5
According to Christianity, God loves you too much to send you into eternal damnation. Too bad he's an not a very nice person (swear filter, think: DONKEYHOLE) while you're still alive "testing" you.
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Post by AHHYOUGOTMYNOSE on Mar 29, 2006 12:03:47 GMT -5
According to Christianity, God loves you too much to send you into eternal damnation. Too bad he's an not a very nice person (swear filter, think: DONKEYHOLE) while you're still alive "testing" you. if god loves us so much why is satan alive and there is hell? >
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Mar 29, 2006 13:17:09 GMT -5
I see your mentions of using the heart, or my intuition, to find truth. The thing is, how can my heart be correct? Why should I trust myself? Over half of Americans see themselves as above average and most people don't get the Monty Hall problem. It seems like the human intuition does not care much about truth as much as what seems right. So, while people claim truths, based on gut instinct, that seem right, it is entirely possible that they are absolutely wrong, and I am not sure how I can be comfortable with that. I don't recall asking you to use your own intuition to find truth. If I did, I'm sorry, that was a mistake. So many books and new ways of life tell you to "look inside yourself" for truth and meaning for life. But that is quite the opposite of how I think one should look for it. We are fallen creatures. The truths we would find inside ourselves can too easily be masked by all the dirt. If you want to look for truth, look to God. What I was trying to say in my first post was that if you ask God to come into your life, He will. If you are looking for truth, ask God for some, and keep your eyes and ears open for whatever He may try to tell you.
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