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Post by Serival on Sept 23, 2006 17:47:33 GMT -5
Creationism and Evolutionism are two very heavily debated topics. In one hand it goes with your beliefs and people that disagree with you are saying your religion is wrong. On the other it's logical simple and doesn't require anything magical to happen. People that say you're wrong threaten your intelligence and ideal to think freely. But which one is right? Or can they both be right, and if so, which one set us off and when did the other intervene? Evolutionism is the theory that every living form evolved from a single reproducing cell thought to be created in the primordial soup of the vast oceans on earth near an under-water vent. Most of the proof for evolution comes from archaeological finds such as fossils. They are able to track what they belief are changes in the animal over time from fossils of different eras. The most popular known case of modern observations is from the change in peppered moths. This isn't really proof of evolutionism. More of natural selection, a major factor of it. -As quoted from my biology book. "The amount of evidence for evolution is staggering." (Trying to stay impartial, and yes. For an education book that's very biased.) Creationism is the belief that every living thing was created by an intelligence. Probably thought of as God. Most people (when I talk about people I mean locally, I mean North America) belief in Creationism. To prove creationism people usually use the fact that we haven't found the "missing link," (or what connects erect walking monkeys to humans). Also doctors often say that when they're in surgery and see the "beauty and complexity" of the human body they know God is real and it isn't possible for that to happen because of evolution. Generally in these arguments people decided they have to take on side of the other. I'll give you two other ideas of mine to use in this discussion. Things evolved after they were created. We were placed upon the earth and it's animals.
What to discuss. -Which one do you believe in and why? -Should evolutionism be taught in schools? (Actually, now it's more like should Creationism be taught in schools). -The legitimacy of claims by famous people, or the legitimacy of finds and why they're proof or not.
I will post my thoughts but I heave to leave right now. Feel free to start the discussion without me.
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Post by :[DS]: Merox on Sept 23, 2006 18:20:40 GMT -5
I personally belive in Evolutionism. I wasn't brought up in a religous home, so that might have something to do with my beliefs.
In Serivals post, he mentioned that people who want to prove creationism wrong, they say we haven't found the "missing link" Well.. then... Have we found that there is a creator of life? Although they haven't found the "missing link" to connect apes to humans, they found other links for things that have evolved over the years.
Creationism is one creator created everything.. Well one thing I often find myself asking.. who created that creator? If they think everything was created.. then how would the creator have been made... That's one thing I could never understand.
From the way I have seen it, there is more evidence supporting evolution over creationism. Fossils have been found, that link animals to their ancestors, people have figured out how the earth was formed... and one thing that I think brings this together, would be the Big Bang Theory.
The Big Bang theory for people who are unfamiliar with it was (from the way I know it to be) when a star burns all its fuel, explodes into a supernova, and the stuff thats left collapses into a neutron star. If the neutron star is to big, it will collapse into itself and become a black hole. And start sucking all its surroundings into it, when it gets to the full mass it can hold, it explodes... and we have rocks and stuff like that that we know as planets.
Didn't want to go to far off topic of the Creationism/Evolution... But that's one aspect that I see that makes me belive evolution over creationsim.
Now for the question "Should Creationism be taught in schools?" I don't think it should. It's a belief without any facts... Evolution is a theory and has supporting details.
On the other hand... if you're going to a religous school.. obviously it would be taught. But as for the public schools, I don't think they should inflict the beliefs of others among the students.
I would just like to say sorry if any of this offends anyone beliefs on the subject, but this is just how I see it.
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Post by Serival on Sept 23, 2006 20:00:04 GMT -5
I believe in evolution.
Probably the most rediculous thing I hear is that if evolution is taught, then creationism should be taught with it (religion trying to haggle since they lost the "evolution shouldn't be taught in the first place" battle).
It's a theory, and a scientific one at that. We should not bend the rules or leave things out even if it's for the majority of the whole.
Evolution should be taught as a theory upon the proof that we have for it, creationism should not be taught for it is religion and not really science.
It's the parent's job to take that upon them to teach their child that creationism happened.
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Post by asskilla on Sept 23, 2006 20:03:37 GMT -5
i think evolutionism too kuz like u said "creationisn is a belief" theres pretty much no evidences to back it up and theres actually some evidences showin evolutionism exist ... i think
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Sept 23, 2006 21:17:16 GMT -5
Hm, I bet none of you have actually looked up evidence for creationism. (except maybe Serival) I haven't either, but my point is that that's one thing people love to throw around: "creationism has no evidence". I betcha it does. Not infallible evidence, for sure, but neither is evolution's evidence infallible. Another point to make is that evolutionism itself does not assert that (1) there is no God; or (2) that the Big Bang took place. 1 is a separate issue and 2 is a separate theory. Evolutionism merely states that all life came from one source and evolved from there to it's present form. It says nothing about whether or not God was guiding it all. That being said, I'm not really a big supporter of either creationism or evolutionism in the common definitions, but I support some aspects of both. I definetly think that the biological process of evolution does happen. It makes sense for it to happen, considering what we know about genetics. But, on the flipside, I do not think that it happened by chance. I believe God created everything* and guided it along at every step. *God said: "Let there be light!" and there was light. <-the Big Bang, perhaps? That would be cool ^_^ "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" KABBBOOOOOOO OOOOMMM!!1!!!A note to Merox: your question, "who created the creator?" is a good one. There's a joke answer and a serious one Joke: He went back in time and created Himself. Serious: God is outside of time and space. He created time and space. There is no "outside of God" or "before God". The reason we feel the need to ask that question is because everything that we have ever experienced has a beginning. But, outside of time, "beginning" doesn't mean anything. God is, was, and ever shall be. It's a weird concept, and I don't think I'll ever fully understand it until I'm actually with Him, but it answers your question, at least for now.
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No Mercy
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Post by No Mercy on Sept 24, 2006 4:45:02 GMT -5
Well first, I'd like to apologize for the first topic, I didn't learn the rules and I'm sory for this. I'd like to thanks you too cause you didn't let my topic in a trash can and, on the contrary, you made it live. So yes I didn't personnaly gave my point of view on this 'cause I didn't want to impose a first ideology if I can say. Well as I read, you share differents opinion on this subject and they are not really opposite if you think to them... Personnaly I don't beleive in a "super power" or something like this which can supporte the theory of creationism. Sure much people beleive in it, but I'm more scientific and I like concrete theory, I like phenomenon which have explications, that you can explain by some experiences and prove it. But, back to the Big Bang; According to this theory, Earth have been created by "accretion" (It mean a lot of particle in fusion (meteorites, stars, but most important was the asteroids ) which met in space with high speed and made contact. Then most dense particle have been moved to the center of the actual Earth, the less around it, it was the "differentiation" of particle. It took place around 17,5 milliard years ago ) Of course it's a synthetic plan... Well this theory have been explain by different experiences: Thus, meteorite (chondrite) are composed exactly like the actually Earth, which can explain a fact. Now how to explain the Life on the Earth ? If you make a phylogenetic tree, you can see that we're basicly coming from "bacterium" : Clik here to see itFrom this way, how to explain where bacterium are from ?... That why, these two theories of creationism and evolutionism can be interpret as they want to be, but of course there is also a "temporal miss"... I hope I've been as clear as I could in my interpretations. Now it's time to the questions: If evolutionism should be taught in school ? I think yes. Evolutionism will learn you the "Human Line" I mean our ancestor if I can say : Australopithec, Homo habilis, Homo Erectus, Neanderthal and Sapiens Sapien it mean Us, for the last... How we can say this, experiences have been made : dating, similarities (especially in behaviour and the most important are the similarities between our genotype ! ) This one don't show really well similarities, but only 1% of differences between chimpanzees and humans ! But, we shouldn't teach Creationism in public school...just repecting the lay law...Creationism treat to much of religions. To finish, I'll oppose Creationism and Evolutionism with repectively Belief and Science, I'll prefer the second It's really short and can be confuse...I hope I've been clear in my explications again, Dears mates, n.m
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Foxtrot
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Post by Foxtrot on Sept 24, 2006 8:48:26 GMT -5
I'm an atheist. You can assume which side I'm on.
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No Mercy
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Post by No Mercy on Sept 24, 2006 9:46:05 GMT -5
It's not a question of side, Even if you're atheist or pratice any religions, you can speak about this freely. It's not only a question of religion...
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Post by notoriousfro on Sept 24, 2006 10:20:12 GMT -5
Hmm, I love this topic.
First of all, evolution does have lots of evidence. The 'missing link' isn't missing. Humans evolved from apes. This is well known and agreed upon. Serival, fossils aren't the only evidence of evolution, nor the best evidence. DNA, however, is. Look at our DNA and a chimpanzee's DNA and you will find them to be 98 percent EXACTLY the same. The missing link is 'Lucy' and 'Lucy's Child' along with other fossils of beings that had a large cranium and were bipeds, yet were distinctly ape-like.
As to Batt's comments:
I'm sorry, but God has NOTHING to do with evolution. He did not guide it along. Evolution occurs because of natural selection and mutation over millions of years. This can be shown very simply with Mendel's experiments with pea plants. As serival said, the peppered moth case was a perfect example of natural selection. How could God guide these along?
Well... a few hundred years ago, God created a flat world with the Earth as the center of the universe. He made it perfect, with a few humans in it named Adam and Eve. Dinosaurs didn't exist in this perfect world. There was no New World across the Atlantic (or at least as far as the Church was concerened). My point is that the church has altered the Bible's meaning to kind of fit with scientific evidence that CAN NOT be disputed, except with one word, "Faith". The church now says evolution is a good idea, and as Batt said, they beleive God guided it along and still said let their be light. I can't argue with this. It is stupid in my opinion and has no founding.
God and evolution can't be intertwined. They are complete opposites. One is faith. One is science.
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Post by :[DS]: Battôsai on Sept 24, 2006 11:57:52 GMT -5
Hey, notorious, I've got a lot to say to that. Shall we revive the "why do you believe in God" thread so that we won't be restricted to talking about evolution/creation?
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Post by Foxtrot on Sept 24, 2006 12:27:28 GMT -5
I guess that "side" was a bit of bad wording. Well, I have one point to make, that refers to Christianity and no other religions, unless they fit the terms.
Which would you rather believe, A story about a talking snake and two people made out of mud? Or the mechanics of natural selection and evolution?
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Post by Serival on Sept 24, 2006 12:33:06 GMT -5
I realise religion is a part of creationism. But let's try and disprove creationism and not religion.
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Foxtrot
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Post by Foxtrot on Sept 24, 2006 18:25:17 GMT -5
That's somewhat hard to do Serival, considering creationism is fully linked to religion. But I'll try.
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Post by Serival on Sept 24, 2006 19:56:41 GMT -5
I'm saying only bring the important parts of religion into the discussion. If your post alone doesn't make it obvious that it's about creationism and not the legitimacy of religion all together then it doesn't belong in this thread.
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No Mercy
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Post by No Mercy on Sept 25, 2006 0:07:36 GMT -5
Yes right.
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